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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 19, 2007 5:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

"piece of the puzzle"

i'm not gonna start a big argument here - but you gotta be shittin me!!! experimenting with different sounds is equivilent or a sign or their general decline?? or they were hiding something with experimentation???

sorry dude - i personally think you are way off base on this one and kinda wacked

just my opinion though

if you don't like the sound, that is one thing..... but......

again - not trying to start a big war

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Mar 19, 2007 5:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

Wacked? I'm not suggesting at all that the use of effects signalled the decline of the band, but it is/was part and parcel of the difference in sound reinforcement that happened at the end of the 70's. The last Betty board 1979. Enter Healy and the Ultra Sound contract for all shows from 1980 onward. Proliferation of effects. Electric instruments (Brent) competing for the same wavelengths. Two drummers and a super loud bass player. All having a bearing on the SOUND.

This though, was specifically about the use of guitar effects and if you can't hear the difference between the guitars on a 71 or 72 board and 1980 SBD, then you be deaf. What provided a more spacey, and probably more pleasant tone onstage in terms of effects did not and could not translate into the same kind of projection and clarity found in the early recordings. Any sound engineer worth their salt will tell you that even using reverb will significantly diminish a guitars projection into the audience...and that applies to a PA amplified guitar as well.

Here's the dirt from the Gear HEads on Jerry effects.

Effects used during the early '70's were limited mostly to the Vox wah-wah pedal being occasionally used.
By the late '70's, he was using the Mutron envelope filter (which was used for Estimated, Shakedown, etc.), and he continued to use it until the very end. A Mutron Octive Divider, MXR Distortion +, Phase 100 and Analog Delay.
By the late '80's, his effects consisted of mostly Boss effects: Octave Divider, Turbo Overdrive, Super Overdrive, EQ's, etc. in two effects loops. He also used some extremely expensive Lexicons a PCM-42 or PCM-60, with a PCM-70) reverb/delay units in the rack behind him; these are studio units.
By 1993, he was using these effects, but used a Groove Tube TRIO preamp as well as a Real Tube Reverb unit to go direct to the soundboard, when all of the power amps & speakers were removed from the stage. They used in-the-ear monitors instead of floor monitor wedges.

Chandler Stereo Digital Echo
Korg O1R/W
Korg M1R
Emu Proteus/1
ADA MicroCab
Alesis Midiverb
Boss OD2
Turbo Overdrive Boss OD1
Overdrive 2
Boss GE7 Equalizers
Boss OC2 Octave
Mutron III
MXR Phase 100
Groove Tubes Trio
Tube Works Real Tube Reverb
some ADA rack mount FX box

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Mar 19, 2007 8:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

had some of these effects existed back in 1965, including midi, i'm sure Garcia would have been on it...basic tools in '65 like reverb, gain, distortion, echo, reverse, etc. are all effects/ enhancements ultimately...The vox wah may be the single most groundbreaking pedal, but it wasn't introduced until the 60s, it wasn't really heard until Hendrix and Cream...that was all they had, that and the warm love of a throbbing marshall...in all actuality, Garcia played with a mostly touched up clean tone, even in the late 80s and 90s..alot less dirty than your standard rock player, more of a country setting on steroids...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 19, 2007 8:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh - ok

whatever dude -

wicked cool you know that stuff

that wasn't my point

(maybe it wasn't yours either - well, actually you were inferring it signalled it was the decline of the band though you just confounded yourself in your first sentence. I'll let that go though being the good natured soul i am - i'd suggest being more careful next time in your argument though)

This post was modified by direwolf0701 on 2007-03-20 03:11:09

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Poster: deadn73 Date: Mar 19, 2007 7:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

effects kick ass and thats that, thank god jerry didnt feel the same way as you

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 19, 2007 5:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

Actually, Dire, forum friend as well, I do think there is something to this implication. The notion that they were 'hiding' behind experimentation is a possible explanation...I know that others here have defended it was a means of advancing musically, and I can appreciate that hypothesis, but I tend toward the other...

So, no, I was not kidding. And of course, we know each other well enough to agree to disagree and no war breaks out...that is the benefit of being, relatively, old timers around these parts. Well, okay, you are much older than me, but only in that limited sense. Har, har...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 19, 2007 5:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

this is just such a beat discussion (not with you - the pre/post 77) - never should have said a word - my fault - pathetic

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Poster: johnzias Date: Jul 2, 2007 5:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

The pre-post 1977 discussion will always exist. To most of us who experienced the Grateful Dead early on, the sound issue, especially from '79 onward isn't even very debatable.

Since the cyber legacy of the Grateful Dead is largely being written by people who have an '80's experiential locus, this debate is given to more of an evenhanded exchange than it merits, IMO.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 19, 2007 6:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Let's start a debate

Not at all. But, I appreciate your position--you've been here long enough to have gone thru it so many times. I am a relative newcomer, and still jump in as if it is fresh.

Hey--how is the leg coming along? Been a while since I caught up with you on that... God, I hope you have had some good news on that front. It has gone on a bit too long, as I am sure you can attest. Tough, so tough to be dealing with a life changing degradation of the body when one has been used to experiencing so much of life in a physical way...I know that my disk problems took a huge toll simply because I had to give up the love of my life (b-ball) while coming to grips with it.

Anyway, hope the news has been better of late. And, to end on a very positive note, I have to tell you that I always think of you and your post about 'my hands are bananas' when people here abouts are complaining about 'nondead' posts...that, and frau stripes, prove to me that nondead posts are sometimes just what we need!

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